10.3 Just Slightly Outside the Circle: Peter Orner and Sarah Wasserman (EH)

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Chicago is the main character, the setting, the obsession, and the historical grist for the mill of Peter Orner’s most recent novel, The Gossip Columnist’s Daughter. In conversation about his hometown with Novel Dialogue host Sarah Wasserman, Peter brings us into a lost pocket of time. It is the early 1960s, when Chicagoans partied in a kind of “Midwestern Weimar” and the gossip columnist Irv Kupcinet, holding forth as many as six times a week for 60 years, wrote a garrulous, glamorous story of the city. While the increasingly unhinged narrator of his novel investigates the mysterious death of Kupcinet’s daughter in 1963, Peter delves into his own family’s history, anxiously asking “we can’t hurt our dead, can we?” The novel swerves between fact and fiction, including photographs that are both real artifacts from the historical record and staged photos that participate in the fictional world of the novel. Peter laughs off this contradiction, remarking “the closer I get to real things, the more fictional it becomes.” How to describe such a complicated novel? Sarah offers this gem: “It’s as if Philip Roth were less cancellable and wrote a murder mystery,” a line that results in a poignant conversation about what it means to be Jewish and socially striving in Chicago in middle of the 20th century and what it means to be a cultural outsider, “just slightly outside of the circle.” Peter brings the conversation to a close with a memory of going to the University of Tish.

Mentioned in this episode:

Reverend Hightower appears in William Faulkner’s Light in August
Irv “Kup” and Essee Kupcinet were Karyn “Cookie” Kupcinet’s parents
An Edna O’Brien story appears in Andre Dubus’s Dancing After Hours
Malcolm Lowry’s Under the Volcano
Phyllis Diller at the Palmer House
Bette Howland’s line about Chicago being “the raw materials for a city” appears in Blue in Chicago
Alberto Paniagua
Philip Roth
Tish O’Dowd Ezekiel’s Floaters

Listen and Read:

Audio: Just Slightly Outside the Circle: Peter Orner and Sarah Wasserman (EH)

Transcript: 10.3 Just Slightly Outside the Circle: Peter Orner and Sarah Wasserman (EH)

11.1 Indie Presses and the Literary Ecosystem: Meg Reid and Will Evans – Novel Dialogue

Meg Reid and Will Evans join Mesha Maren to consider what makes up a literary ecosystem. As leaders of two nonprofit independent presses,Hub City Writers Project and Deep Vellum Press, Meg and Will describe their roles as publishers, booksellers, community builders, and advocates working with the many interconnected players in publishing: writers, readers, translators, critics, librarians, distributors, and funders. They discuss how independent presses create literary infrastructure by staying rooted in their communities, building relationships with readers, and making space for voices and stories that might otherwise be overlooked.The conversation turns to the impact of consolidation across the publishing industry and the effects of a marketplace increasingly shaped by scale. Will explains how Deep Vellum’s origins were tied to a concern that conglomeration was narrowing access to translated literature—and how that same narrowing affects writers and readers in local communities. Meg reflects on Hub City’s intentionally small publishing model and the ways independent presses can offer an alternative built around people rather than volume. Together, they explore the possibilities of a more diverse literary landscape, one where readers are invited to discover books beyond the dominant channels.From bookstores to distribution networks, Meg and Will unpack the systems that determine how books reach readers. They discuss why independent presses have increasingly opened their own bookstores, how distribution consolidation affects which books appear on shelves, and why availability in a warehouse does not necessarily mean availability in a bookstore. They also examine the difficult economics behind publishing: inventory costs, shipping, print runs, pricing, and the challenge of keeping books accessible while sustaining small presses.Closing with the announcement of the Literary Arts Fund’s first round of grants, Meg and Will reflect on what sustained philanthropic investment could mean for literary nonprofits. They describe the importance of long-term support that allows presses to take risks, deepen community work, and collaborate across the literary field. For both publishers, the future of books depends on strengthening the connections among all parts of the ecosystem—and finding ways to invite more people into it.Mentioned in this episode:Meg Reid, Hub City Writers ProjectWill Evans, Deep Vellum PressDan Sinykin, scholar and author of Big Fiction: How Conglomeration Changed the Publishing Industry and American Literature and American Literature & the Long DownturnIngramConsortium Book Sales & DistributionTwo Dollar RadioMilkweed EditionsCenter for the Art of TranslationTwo Lines PressThe Literary Arts FundMellon FoundationNational Endowment for the Arts (NEA) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
  1. 11.1 Indie Presses and the Literary Ecosystem: Meg Reid and Will Evans
  2. 10.5 The Novel as Instrument: Sinan Antoon and Michael Allan (MAT)
  3. 10.4 Place Presents Itself To You in Fragments: Ivan Vladislavić and Jeanne-Marie Jackson (MAT)
  4. 10.3 Just Slightly Outside the Circle: Peter Orner and Sarah Wasserman (EH)
  5. 10.2 Beautiful Sentences Matter. Billy-Ray Belcourt and Matt Hooley (SW)
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Cover design. Light in August, William Faulkner, Smith and Haas, 1932. Front cover.